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Re: [pouchel] Demoichelle Questions

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  • Anthony Martin
    Hello Marc, Thank you for your questions and interesting discussions about Demoichelle engines. Your weight and tall is acceptable for flying a Demoichelle: -
    Message 1 de 12 , 18 avr.

      Hello Marc,

       

      Thank you for your questions and interesting discussions about Demoichelle engines.

       

      Your weight and tall is acceptable for flying a Demoichelle:

       - The maximum take-off weight is 250kg (empty weight ~130) with both spars in aluminum 6060s and 300kg with the new spars in al 6082. 

       - If the fuselage height is too small to fit with your 6'3" tall (I think the actual design complies but it is up to you...), it is easily possible to put the seat lower and/or to make the fuselage bigger (few inch).

       

      About the engines:

       - The rotax 462 (2st, 52hp) with muffler and intake muffler is no more noisy than many 4t engines available on the market and it is very reliable and easy to install.

       - The 2cv/visa conversion is not as powerful as necessary and the conversion is hazardous...

       - The B&S V-twin has never been tried but this kind of engine is a heavy (assuming ~45hp) and vibrating.

       - The HKS 4st engine is a good candidate but expensive.

       

      I'm flying a Demoichelle near Salon de Provence. I would be very happy to show it flying and to discuss about the construction when you will come to France.

       

      Regards

      Anthony Martin


      Le mar. 18 avr. 2017 à 08:22, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
       

      Hello All,


      Please forgive my English but I keep finding my way back to the Demoichelle design and have a few questions. I am 220lbs (100Kilo) and 6'3" tall (1.91 Meter) and curious if I will fit and be under gross.  Also for my area flying under 2 stroke engine is not an option.  Has anyone tried a 4 stroke 2 cylinder Briggs on the Demoichelle?  Direct drive or geared?  Are there any other 4 stroke options? 2CV/Visa conversion?

      I will be visiting family in Samatan France from 06/15 to 07/05 and if there are any flying or under construction examples nearby I would love to see one.  Perhaps there are some near Toulouse?

      Best regards,

      Marc Webster
      Cloudbase Engineering LLC
      www.cloudbaseengineering.com (custom gopro mounts for aircraft)

    • thrmaln
      Hello Anthony, Thanks for the reply. My reason to avoid 2stroke is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not a single patch of spare land where I could
      Message 2 de 12 , 18 avr.
        Hello Anthony,

        Thanks for the reply.  My reason to avoid 2stroke is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not a single patch of spare land where I could land with an engine out.  I am on the edge of the Los Angeles area and I can leave the area and fly in more favorable locations, but for a large portion of my flight I would be vulnerable,

        If the HKS is a good option than the Pegasus O-100 should work as well.  My friend is developing it and I have seen it run and its quite nice and very smooth.  Much smoother than a 1/2 VW.  With prop it weighs about the same as a HKS 700e.  Also it makes its horsepower at a lower RPM so no need for a PSRU.  Also would look better on a Demoichelle than the HKS.  I could possibly get a demo engine for a good price.  Here is a link:  http://flypegasuspower.com/wp/

        In regards to the Materials, I had a look at Matweb and 6061T6 and 6082T6 are very similar.  6082T6 is more common in Europe wheras 6061T6 is more common in the USA.  Also I would likely need to buy it in a non metric size, but I can redraw everything in Solidworks to account for any size differences between Metric vs Imperial.  Can I get the dimensions on the spars called out in the plans to see what I can source here and verify if its good before buying the plans.  Also has anyone ever converted the plans to Imperial before?  If not as I mentioned I would likely redraw everything anyhow.

        As for our visit, I am unsure if we will head that direction.  Your 4hrs away by car.  We will likely head toward Collioure for a few days then into Spain to see Barcelona.  But that may change as we did also consider seeing some of the Provence area.

        Best regards,

        Marc
         


        ---Dans pouchel@..., <antho.martin@...> a écrit :

        Hello Marc,

         

        Thank you for your questions and interesting discussions about Demoichelle engines.

         

        Your weight and tall is acceptable for flying a Demoichelle:

         - The maximum take-off weight is 250kg (empty weight ~130) with both spars in aluminum 6060s and 300kg with the new spars in al 6082. 

         - If the fuselage height is too small to fit with your 6'3" tall (I think the actual design complies but it is up to you...), it is easily possible to put the seat lower and/or to make the fuselage bigger (few inch).

         

        About the engines:

         - The rotax 462 (2st, 52hp) with muffler and intake muffler is no more noisy than many 4t engines available on the market and it is very reliable and easy to install.

         - The 2cv/visa conversion is not as powerful as necessary and the conversion is hazardous...

         - The B&S V-twin has never been tried but this kind of engine is a heavy (assuming ~45hp) and vibrating.

         - The HKS 4st engine is a good candidate but expensive.

         

        I'm flying a Demoichelle near Salon de Provence. I would be very happy to show it flying and to discuss about the construction when you will come to France.

         

        Regards

        Anthony Martin


        Le mar. 18 avr. 2017 à 08:22, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
         

        Hello All,


        Please forgive my English but I keep finding my way back to the Demoichelle design and have a few questions. I am 220lbs (100Kilo) and 6'3" tall (1.91 Meter) and curious if I will fit and be under gross.  Also for my area flying under 2 stroke engine is not an option.  Has anyone tried a 4 stroke 2 cylinder Briggs on the Demoichelle?  Direct drive or geared?  Are there any other 4 stroke options? 2CV/Visa conversion?

        I will be visiting family in Samatan France from 06/15 to 07/05 and if there are any flying or under construction examples nearby I would love to see one.  Perhaps there are some near Toulouse?

        Best regards,

        Marc Webster
        Cloudbase Engineering LLC
        www.cloudbaseengineering.com (custom gopro mounts for aircraft)

      • Anthony Martin
        Hello, My opinion: 4st engines are no more reliable than 2st but they take advantage of a greater TBO and they are heavier. Most of the engine failures are due
        Message 3 de 12 , 19 avr.

          Hello,


          My opinion: 4st engines are no more reliable than 2st but they take advantage of a greater TBO and they are heavier. Most of the engine failures are due to the accessories (fuel line, carburetors…) and installation considerations (location of the fuel tank, filters, fuel pump…) or maintenance.


          Note that in the French regulation, we consider the ultralight engines failure to be an eventual way. This situation should not bring the pilot to death assuming the low wing surface to weight ratio. The ultralight pilot should keep the opportunity to land every time. If not, certified aircraft is mandatory.


          Wing spars are 100x100x2 mm. al 6082 is stronger than al 6061 but same weight. Spars made of al 6082 (100x100x2) are not available in Europe as well as outside but the APEV have ordered a special production to a local manufacturer. Then, APEV is very probably the only provider for this wing spars in al 6082 and have a stock of 500kg of wing spars such like this available for sale and distribution.


          The current design is experienced, proven. Re-design or re-draw is hazardous.


          Regards

          Anthony


          Le mer. 19 avr. 2017 à 01:33, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
           

          Hello Anthony,


          Thanks for the reply.  My reason to avoid 2stroke is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not a single patch of spare land where I could land with an engine out.  I am on the edge of the Los Angeles area and I can leave the area and fly in more favorable locations, but for a large portion of my flight I would be vulnerable,

          If the HKS is a good option than the Pegasus O-100 should work as well.  My friend is developing it and I have seen it run and its quite nice and very smooth.  Much smoother than a 1/2 VW.  With prop it weighs about the same as a HKS 700e.  Also it makes its horsepower at a lower RPM so no need for a PSRU.  Also would look better on a Demoichelle than the HKS.  I could possibly get a demo engine for a good price.  Here is a link:  http://flypegasuspower.com/wp/

          In regards to the Materials, I had a look at Matweb and 6061T6 and 6082T6 are very similar.  6082T6 is more common in Europe wheras 6061T6 is more common in the USA.  Also I would likely need to buy it in a non metric size, but I can redraw everything in Solidworks to account for any size differences between Metric vs Imperial.  Can I get the dimensions on the spars called out in the plans to see what I can source here and verify if its good before buying the plans.  Also has anyone ever converted the plans to Imperial before?  If not as I mentioned I would likely redraw everything anyhow.

          As for our visit, I am unsure if we will head that direction.  Your 4hrs away by car.  We will likely head toward Collioure for a few days then into Spain to see Barcelona.  But that may change as we did also consider seeing some of the Provence area.

          Best regards,

          Marc
           


          ---Dans pouchel@..., <antho.martin@...> a écrit :

          Hello Marc,

           

          Thank you for your questions and interesting discussions about Demoichelle engines.

           

          Your weight and tall is acceptable for flying a Demoichelle:

           - The maximum take-off weight is 250kg (empty weight ~130) with both spars in aluminum 6060s and 300kg with the new spars in al 6082. 

           - If the fuselage height is too small to fit with your 6'3" tall (I think the actual design complies but it is up to you...), it is easily possible to put the seat lower and/or to make the fuselage bigger (few inch).

           

          About the engines:

           - The rotax 462 (2st, 52hp) with muffler and intake muffler is no more noisy than many 4t engines available on the market and it is very reliable and easy to install.

           - The 2cv/visa conversion is not as powerful as necessary and the conversion is hazardous...

           - The B&S V-twin has never been tried but this kind of engine is a heavy (assuming ~45hp) and vibrating.

           - The HKS 4st engine is a good candidate but expensive.

           

          I'm flying a Demoichelle near Salon de Provence. I would be very happy to show it flying and to discuss about the construction when you will come to France.

           

          Regards

          Anthony Martin


          Le mar. 18 avr. 2017 à 08:22, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
           

          Hello All,


          Please forgive my English but I keep finding my way back to the Demoichelle design and have a few questions. I am 220lbs (100Kilo) and 6'3" tall (1.91 Meter) and curious if I will fit and be under gross.  Also for my area flying under 2 stroke engine is not an option.  Has anyone tried a 4 stroke 2 cylinder Briggs on the Demoichelle?  Direct drive or geared?  Are there any other 4 stroke options? 2CV/Visa conversion?

          I will be visiting family in Samatan France from 06/15 to 07/05 and if there are any flying or under construction examples nearby I would love to see one.  Perhaps there are some near Toulouse?

          Best regards,

          Marc Webster
          Cloudbase Engineering LLC
          www.cloudbaseengineering.com (custom gopro mounts for aircraft)

        • Marc Webster
          Hello Anthony, Thanks again for the reply. I am a big proponent for follow the plans and I am not looking to redesign in any way, just make some material
          Message 4 de 12 , 19 avr.
            Hello Anthony,

            Thanks again for the reply.  I am a big proponent for follow the plans and I am not looking to redesign in any way, just make some material substitutions when needed for items I cannot find here.  For example if the round tubing called for 25mm, I would use 1" which is a .4mm difference.  On the wing spars, finding 100x100x2 would be hard, but I can likely find 4"x4"x.093 (101.6mm x 101.6mm x 2.36mm).  Or I order the spars from APEV and have them ship to the USA; Has anyone done this?  Did it cost a fortune to ship?  If I went that far buying the kit would be an option worth considering.  Has APEV ever shipped a full kit to the USA? Or partial kit with just the items I cant source here?  Do you know if there are any builders of any APEV designs in the USA?

            Has a demoichelle been built and flown with an HKS-700?  The Pegasus O-100 is nearly the same weight.

            The Demoichelle falls just outside of our Ultralight rules, but for my needs and area of use it would need to be registered experimental anyhow and have an N number.  No electrical system but at least a handheld radio.

            Best regards,

            Marc

            On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Anthony Martin antho.martin@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> wrote:
             

            Hello,


            My opinion: 4st engines are no more reliable than 2st but they take advantage of a greater TBO and they are heavier. Most of the engine failures are due to the accessories (fuel line, carburetors…) and installation considerations (location of the fuel tank, filters, fuel pump…) or maintenance.


            Note that in the French regulation, we consider the ultralight engines failure to be an eventual way. This situation should not bring the pilot to death assuming the low wing surface to weight ratio. The ultralight pilot should keep the opportunity to land every time. If not, certified aircraft is mandatory.


            Wing spars are 100x100x2 mm. al 6082 is stronger than al 6061 but same weight. Spars made of al 6082 (100x100x2) are not available in Europe as well as outside but the APEV have ordered a special production to a local manufacturer. Then, APEV is very probably the only provider for this wing spars in al 6082 and have a stock of 500kg of wing spars such like this available for sale and distribution.


            The current design is experienced, proven. Re-design or re-draw is hazardous.


            Regards

            Anthony


            Le mer. 19 avr. 2017 à 01:33, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
             

            Hello Anthony,


            Thanks for the reply.  My reason to avoid 2stroke is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not a single patch of spare land where I could land with an engine out.  I am on the edge of the Los Angeles area and I can leave the area and fly in more favorable locations, but for a large portion of my flight I would be vulnerable,

            If the HKS is a good option than the Pegasus O-100 should work as well.  My friend is developing it and I have seen it run and its quite nice and very smooth.  Much smoother than a 1/2 VW.  With prop it weighs about the same as a HKS 700e.  Also it makes its horsepower at a lower RPM so no need for a PSRU.  Also would look better on a Demoichelle than the HKS.  I could possibly get a demo engine for a good price.  Here is a link:  http://flypegasuspower.com/ wp/

            In regards to the Materials, I had a look at Matweb and 6061T6 and 6082T6 are very similar.  6082T6 is more common in Europe wheras 6061T6 is more common in the USA.  Also I would likely need to buy it in a non metric size, but I can redraw everything in Solidworks to account for any size differences between Metric vs Imperial.  Can I get the dimensions on the spars called out in the plans to see what I can source here and verify if its good before buying the plans.  Also has anyone ever converted the plans to Imperial before?  If not as I mentioned I would likely redraw everything anyhow.

            As for our visit, I am unsure if we will head that direction.  Your 4hrs away by car.  We will likely head toward Collioure for a few days then into Spain to see Barcelona.  But that may change as we did also consider seeing some of the Provence area.

            Best regards,

            Marc
             


            ---Dans pouchel@..., <antho.martin@...> a écrit :

            Hello Marc,

             

            Thank you for your questions and interesting discussions about Demoichelle engines.

             

            Your weight and tall is acceptable for flying a Demoichelle:

             - The maximum take-off weight is 250kg (empty weight ~130) with both spars in aluminum 6060s and 300kg with the new spars in al 6082. 

             - If the fuselage height is too small to fit with your 6'3" tall (I think the actual design complies but it is up to you...), it is easily possible to put the seat lower and/or to make the fuselage bigger (few inch).

             

            About the engines:

             - The rotax 462 (2st, 52hp) with muffler and intake muffler is no more noisy than many 4t engines available on the market and it is very reliable and easy to install.

             - The 2cv/visa conversion is not as powerful as necessary and the conversion is hazardous...

             - The B&S V-twin has never been tried but this kind of engine is a heavy (assuming ~45hp) and vibrating.

             - The HKS 4st engine is a good candidate but expensive.

             

            I'm flying a Demoichelle near Salon de Provence. I would be very happy to show it flying and to discuss about the construction when you will come to France.

             

            Regards

            Anthony Martin


            Le mar. 18 avr. 2017 à 08:22, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
             

            Hello All,


            Please forgive my English but I keep finding my way back to the Demoichelle design and have a few questions. I am 220lbs (100Kilo) and 6'3" tall (1.91 Meter) and curious if I will fit and be under gross.  Also for my area flying under 2 stroke engine is not an option.  Has anyone tried a 4 stroke 2 cylinder Briggs on the Demoichelle?  Direct drive or geared?  Are there any other 4 stroke options? 2CV/Visa conversion?

            I will be visiting family in Samatan France from 06/15 to 07/05 and if there are any flying or under construction examples nearby I would love to see one.  Perhaps there are some near Toulouse?

            Best regards,

            Marc Webster
            Cloudbase Engineering LLC
            www.cloudbaseengineering.com ( custom gopro mounts for aircraft)


          • Anthony Martin
            Hello, APEV has never sent kits to US (to my knowledge) but 1 or 2 over Europe. I ll ask for shipping cost to get an idea. For the materials, the manufacturing
            Message 5 de 12 , 19 avr.

              Hello,

               

              APEV has never sent kits to US (to my knowledge) but 1 or 2 over Europe. I'll ask for shipping cost to get an idea.

              For the materials, the manufacturing process should be considered (rolling, extrusion) and surface treatment as well...

              Sorry, mistake in my last e-mail: main wings spars are 100x50x2.

              Yes, one pouchel design has ever been built in Kansas (Wichita) if I remember well.

              Yes a Demoichelle has ever been built with hks700 but still not flying.


              Regards


              Anthony


              Le mer. 19 avr. 2017 à 10:52, Marc Webster addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
               

              Hello Anthony,

              Thanks again for the reply.  I am a big proponent for follow the plans and I am not looking to redesign in any way, just make some material substitutions when needed for items I cannot find here.  For example if the round tubing called for 25mm, I would use 1" which is a .4mm difference.  On the wing spars, finding 100x100x2 would be hard, but I can likely find 4"x4"x.093 (101.6mm x 101.6mm x 2.36mm).  Or I order the spars from APEV and have them ship to the USA; Has anyone done this?  Did it cost a fortune to ship?  If I went that far buying the kit would be an option worth considering.  Has APEV ever shipped a full kit to the USA? Or partial kit with just the items I cant source here?  Do you know if there are any builders of any APEV designs in the USA?

              Has a demoichelle been built and flown with an HKS-700?  The Pegasus O-100 is nearly the same weight.

              The Demoichelle falls just outside of our Ultralight rules, but for my needs and area of use it would need to be registered experimental anyhow and have an N number.  No electrical system but at least a handheld radio.

              Best regards,

              Marc


              On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Anthony Martin antho.martin@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> wrote:
               

              Hello,


              My opinion: 4st engines are no more reliable than 2st but they take advantage of a greater TBO and they are heavier. Most of the engine failures are due to the accessories (fuel line, carburetors…) and installation considerations (location of the fuel tank, filters, fuel pump…) or maintenance.


              Note that in the French regulation, we consider the ultralight engines failure to be an eventual way. This situation should not bring the pilot to death assuming the low wing surface to weight ratio. The ultralight pilot should keep the opportunity to land every time. If not, certified aircraft is mandatory.


              Wing spars are 100x100x2 mm. al 6082 is stronger than al 6061 but same weight. Spars made of al 6082 (100x100x2) are not available in Europe as well as outside but the APEV have ordered a special production to a local manufacturer. Then, APEV is very probably the only provider for this wing spars in al 6082 and have a stock of 500kg of wing spars such like this available for sale and distribution.


              The current design is experienced, proven. Re-design or re-draw is hazardous.


              Regards

              Anthony


              Le mer. 19 avr. 2017 à 01:33, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
               

              Hello Anthony,


              Thanks for the reply.  My reason to avoid 2stroke is I live in the Los Angeles area and there is not a single patch of spare land where I could land with an engine out.  I am on the edge of the Los Angeles area and I can leave the area and fly in more favorable locations, but for a large portion of my flight I would be vulnerable,

              If the HKS is a good option than the Pegasus O-100 should work as well.  My friend is developing it and I have seen it run and its quite nice and very smooth.  Much smoother than a 1/2 VW.  With prop it weighs about the same as a HKS 700e.  Also it makes its horsepower at a lower RPM so no need for a PSRU.  Also would look better on a Demoichelle than the HKS.  I could possibly get a demo engine for a good price.  Here is a link:  http://flypegasuspower.com/wp/

              In regards to the Materials, I had a look at Matweb and 6061T6 and 6082T6 are very similar.  6082T6 is more common in Europe wheras 6061T6 is more common in the USA.  Also I would likely need to buy it in a non metric size, but I can redraw everything in Solidworks to account for any size differences between Metric vs Imperial.  Can I get the dimensions on the spars called out in the plans to see what I can source here and verify if its good before buying the plans.  Also has anyone ever converted the plans to Imperial before?  If not as I mentioned I would likely redraw everything anyhow.

              As for our visit, I am unsure if we will head that direction.  Your 4hrs away by car.  We will likely head toward Collioure for a few days then into Spain to see Barcelona.  But that may change as we did also consider seeing some of the Provence area.

              Best regards,

              Marc
               


              ---Dans pouchel@..., <antho.martin@...> a écrit :

              Hello Marc,

               

              Thank you for your questions and interesting discussions about Demoichelle engines.

               

              Your weight and tall is acceptable for flying a Demoichelle:

               - The maximum take-off weight is 250kg (empty weight ~130) with both spars in aluminum 6060s and 300kg with the new spars in al 6082. 

               - If the fuselage height is too small to fit with your 6'3" tall (I think the actual design complies but it is up to you...), it is easily possible to put the seat lower and/or to make the fuselage bigger (few inch).

               

              About the engines:

               - The rotax 462 (2st, 52hp) with muffler and intake muffler is no more noisy than many 4t engines available on the market and it is very reliable and easy to install.

               - The 2cv/visa conversion is not as powerful as necessary and the conversion is hazardous...

               - The B&S V-twin has never been tried but this kind of engine is a heavy (assuming ~45hp) and vibrating.

               - The HKS 4st engine is a good candidate but expensive.

               

              I'm flying a Demoichelle near Salon de Provence. I would be very happy to show it flying and to discuss about the construction when you will come to France.

               

              Regards

              Anthony Martin


              Le mar. 18 avr. 2017 à 08:22, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
               

              Hello All,


              Please forgive my English but I keep finding my way back to the Demoichelle design and have a few questions. I am 220lbs (100Kilo) and 6'3" tall (1.91 Meter) and curious if I will fit and be under gross.  Also for my area flying under 2 stroke engine is not an option.  Has anyone tried a 4 stroke 2 cylinder Briggs on the Demoichelle?  Direct drive or geared?  Are there any other 4 stroke options? 2CV/Visa conversion?

              I will be visiting family in Samatan France from 06/15 to 07/05 and if there are any flying or under construction examples nearby I would love to see one.  Perhaps there are some near Toulouse?

              Best regards,

              Marc Webster
              Cloudbase Engineering LLC
              www.cloudbaseengineering.com (custom gopro mounts for aircraft)


            • thrmaln
              Hello Anthony, I spent the day trying to source the 100x50x2 tubing in 6082 and was unable. There is a metric metals company in the USA that sells 100x50x2mm
              Message 6 de 12 , 19 avr.
                Hello Anthony,

                I spent the day trying to source the 100x50x2 tubing in 6082 and was unable.  There is a metric metals company in the USA that sells 100x50x2mm in 6060-T6.  I will email them to see if they have it in any other grade aluminum.  In the USA 6061,6063,2024 & 7075 is more common.  6082 in the USA does not exist as far as I can find.  I can find imperial sizes but will pay the price in added weight with thicker wall.  Best I can find is 4"x 2" x .125" which is more than 1mm thicker so it will weight at least 50% more each which is a big hit.  So I suppose it makes sense to see how much shipping would be for 2 spars form the APEV to the USA.  Or I continue to keep looking.  If I could find 4" x 2" x .09" than that is closer to 2mm.

                Best regards,

                Marc
              • Anthony Martin
                Hello, Tubes made of Al 6082 are not available in europe as well as outside. That s why APEV has ordered a special production to a local manufacturer. Then,
                Message 7 de 12 , 20 avr.
                  Hello,

                  Tubes made of Al 6082 are not available in europe as well as outside. That's why APEV has ordered a special production to a local manufacturer. Then, APEV is very probably the only provider for this wing spars in al 6082.

                  Daniel Dalby is currently looking for an issue to ship a full or partial kit to you. He will let us know as soon as possible in a couple of weeks.

                  Spars in 6061 could be an issue but MTOW will be lower (250kg).

                  regards
                  Anthony

                  Le jeu. 20 avr. 2017 à 01:51, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
                   

                  Hello Anthony,


                  I spent the day trying to source the 100x50x2 tubing in 6082 and was unable.  There is a metric metals company in the USA that sells 100x50x2mm in 6060-T6.  I will email them to see if they have it in any other grade aluminum.  In the USA 6061,6063,2024 & 7075 is more common.  6082 in the USA does not exist as far as I can find.  I can find imperial sizes but will pay the price in added weight with thicker wall.  Best I can find is 4"x 2" x .125" which is more than 1mm thicker so it will weight at least 50% more each which is a big hit.  So I suppose it makes sense to see how much shipping would be for 2 spars form the APEV to the USA.  Or I continue to keep looking.  If I could find 4" x 2" x .09" than that is closer to 2mm.

                  Best regards,

                  Marc
                • thrmaln
                  Hello Anthony, Thanks for looking into this. It would be great to see more of these designs made in the USA. For my camera mounts
                  Message 8 de 12 , 20 avr.
                    Hello Anthony,

                    Thanks for looking into this.  It would be great to see more of these designs made in the USA.  For my camera mounts (www.cloudbaseengineering.com) I have them made from custom extrusion profles that I designed.  If it ends up being too cost prohibitive for me to import the spars for my build, perhaps I can ask my vendor to extrude some for me.  100mm x 50mm x 2mm is likely a die they may already have.  However 6082 would not be possible.  Perhaps 2024 or 7075 would be close.  

                    I had a look at the Values for 6061 vs 6082 and they are so similar.  Material composition is nearly identical with a bit more percentage points between the two.  Ultimate and yield tensile strength is greater on 6061.  Elongation at break is also better on 6061 so it stretches a bit more before the crack forms.  Only thing I can see as superior on 6082 is the Modulus of elasticity and even then its just a minor difference.  68.9/10000 ksi on 6061 vs 71/10000ksi on 6082.  Does this really equate to another 50kg of useful load on the wing spars?

                    Perhaps 6061-T6 in a slightly larger imperial size of 4" x 2" x .093" would do the same.  I can have this made here as an extrusion.  Or possibly even find it in stock.  Maybe I could do a run of each in solidworks and see what FEA says.

                    Marc
                  • Anthony Martin
                    Hello, Please find below a link to compare the mechanical characteristics of al 6060 and 6082. http://www.euralliage.com/alliage.html 2 x 4 x 0.093 is maybe
                    Message 9 de 12 , 21 avr.
                      Hello,

                      Please find below a link to compare the mechanical characteristics of al 6060 and 6082.

                      2" x 4" x 0.093" is maybe compliant. This should be confirmed by Daniel Dalby. Then, check the impact on weight.

                      regards
                      Anthony

                      Le ven. 21 avr. 2017 à 01:44, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
                       

                      Hello Anthony,


                      Thanks for looking into this.  It would be great to see more of these designs made in the USA.  For my camera mounts (www.cloudbaseengineering.com) I have them made from custom extrusion profles that I designed.  If it ends up being too cost prohibitive for me to import the spars for my build, perhaps I can ask my vendor to extrude some for me.  100mm x 50mm x 2mm is likely a die they may already have.  However 6082 would not be possible.  Perhaps 2024 or 7075 would be close.  

                      I had a look at the Values for 6061 vs 6082 and they are so similar.  Material composition is nearly identical with a bit more percentage points between the two.  Ultimate and yield tensile strength is greater on 6061.  Elongation at break is also better on 6061 so it stretches a bit more before the crack forms.  Only thing I can see as superior on 6082 is the Modulus of elasticity and even then its just a minor difference.  68.9/10000 ksi on 6061 vs 71/10000ksi on 6082.  Does this really equate to another 50kg of useful load on the wing spars?

                      Perhaps 6061-T6 in a slightly larger imperial size of 4" x 2" x .093" would do the same.  I can have this made here as an extrusion.  Or possibly even find it in stock.  Maybe I could do a run of each in solidworks and see what FEA says.

                      Marc
                    • Anthony Martin
                      Hello, Sorry, there are maybe confusions in our last e-mails about 6060 and 6061 that are closed chemically but not mechanically. Mechanically, 6061 looks
                      Message 10 de 12 , 21 avr.

                        Hello,

                         

                        Sorry, there are maybe confusions in our last e-mails about 6060 and 6061 that are closed chemically but not mechanically. Mechanically, 6061 looks closer to 6082 than 6060…

                        As I’m not an expert on these topics, here is what I can propose to you:

                        Please build the list of extruded tubes you can supply locally closed the 100x50x2 original size with corresponding alloy and treatments and I’ll submit it to Daniel for eligibility.

                         

                        Regards

                        Anthony


                        Le ven. 21 avr. 2017 à 09:27, Anthony Martin <antho.martin@...> a écrit :
                        Hello,

                        Please find below a link to compare the mechanical characteristics of al 6060 and 6082.

                        2" x 4" x 0.093" is maybe compliant. This should be confirmed by Daniel Dalby. Then, check the impact on weight.

                        regards
                        Anthony

                        Le ven. 21 avr. 2017 à 01:44, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
                         

                        Hello Anthony,


                        Thanks for looking into this.  It would be great to see more of these designs made in the USA.  For my camera mounts (www.cloudbaseengineering.com) I have them made from custom extrusion profles that I designed.  If it ends up being too cost prohibitive for me to import the spars for my build, perhaps I can ask my vendor to extrude some for me.  100mm x 50mm x 2mm is likely a die they may already have.  However 6082 would not be possible.  Perhaps 2024 or 7075 would be close.  

                        I had a look at the Values for 6061 vs 6082 and they are so similar.  Material composition is nearly identical with a bit more percentage points between the two.  Ultimate and yield tensile strength is greater on 6061.  Elongation at break is also better on 6061 so it stretches a bit more before the crack forms.  Only thing I can see as superior on 6082 is the Modulus of elasticity and even then its just a minor difference.  68.9/10000 ksi on 6061 vs 71/10000ksi on 6082.  Does this really equate to another 50kg of useful load on the wing spars?

                        Perhaps 6061-T6 in a slightly larger imperial size of 4" x 2" x .093" would do the same.  I can have this made here as an extrusion.  Or possibly even find it in stock.  Maybe I could do a run of each in solidworks and see what FEA says.

                        Marc
                      • Marc Webster
                        Hello Anthony, Thank you so much for all your help with this. My error was I thought for the 250kg spars it was with 6061-T6. I just reread your email and see
                        Message 11 de 12 , 21 avr.
                          Hello Anthony,

                          Thank you so much for all your help with this.

                          My error was I thought for the 250kg spars it was with 6061-T6.  I just reread your email and see you said 6060s..  I assumed you were referring to the many variants of 6060's Ie 6060, 6061 and 6063.  Yes I agree 6061 and 6082 are so close that its likely a wash between using either.  I can find extrusions in 6061 here but they will likely be in Imperial sizes.  However, I did find a company that does have a 100x50x2mm die but they don't stock anything so it may require a large qty.

                          Just for fun, I modeled a few spars at 4 meter lengths up in solidworks to see how the weight and volume changes between metric and imperial.  Below are my numbers.

                          #1 100x50x2mm         6082-T6      6307 Grams  Volume 2,336,000 Cubic mm       Pair for a wing: 12,614 G     27.75 lb

                          #2 4in x 2in x .063in    6061-T6      5117 Grams  Volume 1,895,158 Cubic mm       Pair for a wing: 10,234 G     22.51 lb  Notes: I can find this in stock now

                          #3 4in x 2in x .094in    6061-T6      7594 Grams  Volume 2,812,494 Cubic mm       Pair for a wing: 15,188 G     33.41 lb  Notes: I can not find this wall thickness, but I am sure if I look more will be able to.

                          So if I go with item #3 it is a 5.66 lb hit but I have a spar that is a bit larger with even more wall thickness than the stock metric one.  This seems like a substitution I should be able to make and get to the 300kg max Gross weight.  Can you ask Daniel what he thinks based on my findings.  Also what size tubes are used for the fuselage and tail surfaces?

                          Best regards,

                          Marc

                          On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Anthony Martin antho.martin@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> wrote:
                           

                          Hello,

                           

                          Sorry, there are maybe confusions in our last e-mails about 6060 and 6061 that are closed chemically but not mechanically. Mechanically, 6061 looks closer to 6082 than 6060…

                          As I’m not an expert on these topics, here is what I can propose to you:

                          Please build the list of extruded tubes you can supply locally closed the 100x50x2 original size with corresponding alloy and treatments and I’ll submit it to Daniel for eligibility.

                           

                          Regards

                          Anthony


                          Le ven. 21 avr. 2017 à 09:27, Anthony Martin <antho.martin@...> a écrit :
                          Hello,

                          Please find below a link to compare the mechanical characteristics of al 6060 and 6082.

                          2" x 4" x 0.093" is maybe compliant. This should be confirmed by Daniel Dalby. Then, check the impact on weight.

                          regards
                          Anthony

                          Le ven. 21 avr. 2017 à 01:44, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
                           

                          Hello Anthony,


                          Thanks for looking into this.  It would be great to see more of these designs made in the USA.  For my camera mounts (www.cloudbaseengineering.com) I have them made from custom extrusion profles that I designed.  If it ends up being too cost prohibitive for me to import the spars for my build, perhaps I can ask my vendor to extrude some for me.  100mm x 50mm x 2mm is likely a die they may already have.  However 6082 would not be possible.  Perhaps 2024 or 7075 would be close.  

                          I had a look at the Values for 6061 vs 6082 and they are so similar.  Material composition is nearly identical with a bit more percentage points between the two.  Ultimate and yield tensile strength is greater on 6061.  Elongation at break is also better on 6061 so it stretches a bit more before the crack forms.  Only thing I can see as superior on 6082 is the Modulus of elasticity and even then its just a minor difference.  68.9/10000 ksi on 6061 vs 71/10000ksi on 6082.  Does this really equate to another 50kg of useful load on the wing spars?

                          Perhaps 6061-T6 in a slightly larger imperial size of 4" x 2" x .093" would do the same.  I can have this made here as an extrusion.  Or possibly even find it in stock.  Maybe I could do a run of each in solidworks and see what FEA says.

                          Marc


                        • dannyda13
                          Hello Marc, For the spars, the 4 in x 2in x 0.94 in 6061 T 6 is good For the fuselage 50x50x2 mm 6060 T6 or 2in x 2in x 0.94 in For tail surfaces tub 25x1.5 mm
                          Message 12 de 12 , 22 avr.
                            Hello Marc,
                            For the spars, the 4 in x 2in x 0.94 in  6061 T 6 is good
                            For the fuselage 50x50x2 mm 6060 T6 or 2in x 2in x 0.94 in
                            For tail surfaces tub 25x1.5 mm 6060T6 or  1 in x 0.063 in
                            Best regards
                            Daniel


                            De: "Marc Webster addicted2climbing@... [pouchel]" <pouchel@...>
                            À: pouchel@...
                            Envoyé: Vendredi 21 Avril 2017 21:12:02
                            Objet: Re: [pouchel] Demoichelle Questions

                             


                            Hello Anthony,

                            Thank you so much for all your help with this.

                            My error was I thought for the 250kg spars it was with 6061-T6.  I just reread your email and see you said 6060s..  I assumed you were referring to the many variants of 6060's Ie 6060, 6061 and 6063.  Yes I agree 6061 and 6082 are so close that its likely a wash between using either.  I can find extrusions in 6061 here but they will likely be in Imperial sizes.  However, I did find a company that does have a 100x50x2mm die but they don't stock anything so it may require a large qty.

                            Just for fun, I modeled a few spars at 4 meter lengths up in solidworks to see how the weight and volume changes between metric and imperial.  Below are my numbers.

                            #1 100x50x2mm         6082-T6      6307 Grams  Volume 2,336,000 Cubic mm       Pair for a wing: 12,614 G     27.75 lb

                            #2 4in x 2in x .063in    6061-T6      5117 Grams  Volume 1,895,158 Cubic mm       Pair for a wing: 10,234 G     22.51 lb  Notes: I can find this in stock now

                            #3 4in x 2in x .094in    6061-T6      7594 Grams  Volume 2,812,494 Cubic mm       Pair for a wing: 15,188 G     33.41 lb  Notes: I can not find this wall thickness, but I am sure if I look more will be able to.

                            So if I go with item #3 it is a 5.66 lb hit but I have a spar that is a bit larger with even more wall thickness than the stock metric one.  This seems like a substitution I should be able to make and get to the 300kg max Gross weight.  Can you ask Daniel what he thinks based on my findings.  Also what size tubes are used for the fuselage and tail surfaces?

                            Best regards,

                            Marc

                            On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Anthony Martin antho.martin@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> wrote:
                             


                            Hello,

                             

                            Sorry, there are maybe confusions in our last e-mails about 6060 and 6061 that are closed chemically but not mechanically. Mechanically, 6061 looks closer to 6082 than 6060…

                            As I’m not an expert on these topics, here is what I can propose to you:

                            Please build the list of extruded tubes you can supply locally closed the 100x50x2 original size with corresponding alloy and treatments and I’ll submit it to Daniel for eligibility.

                             

                            Regards

                            Anthony


                            Le ven. 21 avr. 2017 à 09:27, Anthony Martin <antho.martin@...> a écrit :
                            Hello,

                            Please find below a link to compare the mechanical characteristics of al 6060 and 6082.

                            2" x 4" x 0.093" is maybe compliant. This should be confirmed by Daniel Dalby. Then, check the impact on weight.

                            regards
                            Anthony

                            Le ven. 21 avr. 2017 à 01:44, addicted2climbing@... [pouchel] <pouchel@...> a écrit :
                             

                            Hello Anthony,


                            Thanks for looking into this.  It would be great to see more of these designs made in the USA.  For my camera mounts (www.cloudbaseengineering.com) I have them made from custom extrusion profles that I designed.  If it ends up being too cost prohibitive for me to import the spars for my build, perhaps I can ask my vendor to extrude some for me.  100mm x 50mm x 2mm is likely a die they may already have.  However 6082 would not be possible.  Perhaps 2024 or 7075 would be close.  

                            I had a look at the Values for 6061 vs 6082 and they are so similar.  Material composition is nearly identical with a bit more percentage points between the two.  Ultimate and yield tensile strength is greater on 6061.  Elongation at break is also better on 6061 so it stretches a bit more before the crack forms.  Only thing I can see as superior on 6082 is the Modulus of elasticity and even then its just a minor difference.  68.9/10000 ksi on 6061 vs 71/10000ksi on 6082.  Does this really equate to another 50kg of useful load on the wing spars?

                            Perhaps 6061-T6 in a slightly larger imperial size of 4" x 2" x .093" would do the same.  I can have this made here as an extrusion.  Or possibly even find it in stock.  Maybe I could do a run of each in solidworks and see what FEA says.

                            Marc








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